12 responses to “To Paul Or Not To Paul, Part 3”

  1. Sergio Méndez

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    After reading all this fascinating discussion around Ron Paul, I think it is desirable that Ron Paul wins the republican nomination for his anti war stance and his anti drug war stance. In the other aspects (immigration, abortion) Ron Paul seems to me exactly like other republican candidates, but he best them for his position in the two first issues I mention. Now, in a general election, I think there is no candidate left to vote for left libertarians, except Kucinich. Yes, Kucinich is a statist, but he shares many of the good stuff of Paul (his anti war stance, his anti drug war stance, which are authentically libertarian) and also have other good points that Paul lacks (his support for abortion right, gender issue equality etc…). I just wonder why so many libertarians don’t consider Kucinich -supposedly for his statist policies, while failing to see many of his libertarian positions- while they systematically ignore or downplay many of the statist trends Paul has.

  2. quasibill

    MSIE 7.0 Windows XP

    Excellent post. Except for one “but!” and a few minor quibbles, I agree totally.

    “But this point seems to apply to a period when the revolution is imminent, which certainly isn’t now.)”

    Do people really foresee revolutions clearly, or are the causes and signs only clear in retrospect? Does it have to be a full-fledged revolution, or will you accept merely a Soviet-style disintegration as a “revolution’? As I’ve argued before, and you note earlier in your post, it’s important to have at least a non-enemy in power for even a Soviet-style disintegration or devolution of power.

    And I would say that a Soviet-style disintegration of the U.S. is desirable, and if not imminent, at least on the horizon (I think it could be imminent, but a lot will depend on the reaction of the federal government as the economy starts to plummet in the next few years). And I’d rather have Paul than Giuliani or Clinton at the wheel when the time comes, much the same that the Soviet people should be happy that it was not Stalin at the wheel in the late ’80s.

  3. Bubba

    MSIE 6.0 Windows XP

    I’m going to give you the dilettante’s oversimplified solution to the Ron Paul question, and for that matter, all the other candidate’s. That way, all you innerlectuals can stop frettin’, splittin’ hairs, threadin’ needles, and usin’ big words.
    As I see it, all presidential candidates have cooties and none of ‘em use a condom. We’s all gonna get screwed somehow or nuther. So which venereal disease do you want to put up with?
    Hell, lets get Ron Paul in the White House and we’ll doctor on him later.

    Bubba

  4. Soviet Onion

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    Roderick,

    Regarding your point about the benefit of installing a few friendly bureaucrats on the inside to help us, I’d say that counter-economics already provides a mechanism for that. Black markets always attract their share of corrupt bureaucrats looking to pull strings for the right price. We need to not go to the politicians; the politicians will come to us.

    So by the time revolution is imminent, corruption would already supply us with all the moles and double agents we could hope for. When the state comes hunting for the Agorists, they could probably be bribed (or, if necessary, blackmail) into into misdirecting those efforts, or tipping us off ahead of time.

  5. Niccolò

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    Another issue I take with the Ron Paul support comes from the fact that the entire process is an example of allocative inefficiency.

    Let us assume that the revolutionaries and the reformists want the same end-goals, or at least very similar ones. Given the demonstrated nature of Agorism as a market system and political reform as a socialist system, would libertarians adhering to markets as more efficient than socialist systems not be forced to pull support from Ron Paul and reinvest it into the efficient market system?

    To me, Paul represents to the libertarian movement what malinvestments represent in the economy.

    The resources seen given to Ron Paul are quite tremendous – in the context of the libertarian movement – but really how much feed back will the libertarian movement see? What return on the libertarian movement’s investments can there be? Does anyone really believe that when Ron Paul loses and Clinton or Obama are elected that this will equal or succeed the marginal costs applied to the Ron Paul campaign? No doubt, we will see some net returns, and we are seeing them today, but that’s not the point of allocative efficiency. The question that I come to, in the interests of advancing the libertarian movement with the greatest effectiveness, remains, are we better off throwing support at a system that exhibits a net loss on our part? Are we better off ignoring greater alternatives that would reap a larger reward for these losses? Essentially, are we better off losing or gaining ground?

    I think the answer is clear, don’t vote Ron Paul, don’t go reformists – Don’t feed the beast, go counter-economic!

  6. Tomasz

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    I don’t think anyone should be under the illusion Ron Paul will be the next US President. Even if he were to win the GOP nomination the array of interests against him, and the relative lack of a libertarian mind set amongst the voters, make him unwinnable. Still there is some mileage in supporting a losing candidate that both political and agorist libertarians should have common ground on. Both approaches require education and public attention to progress, the Paul campaign is a great educational vehicle for making a larger fraction of the population aware of libertarian ideas, if only in the not-100%-pure version Paul espouses. The likely failure of the Ron Paul campaign is also likely to be educational in itself and may encourage many libertarian inclined people to realise that reforming the beast is unlikely via the beastly electoral route.

  7. Anon82

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    Yes, Kucinich is a statist, but he shares many of the good stuff of Paul (his anti war stance, his anti drug war stance

    Interestingly I did a search and found a few votes where Paul and Kucinich were alone in voting “No” to a bill to which everyone else voted “Yes”. Too bad there’s no way for Paul and Kucinich to do the fusion dance.

  8. Niccolò

    Firefox 2.0.0.11 Windows XP

    The comment that we do not live in a free market is highly irrelevant. You don’t need a high level of free markets to work in an efficient way, that is, even if the majority ISN’T market based, the counter-economy is by default, permanently.

  9. Jeremy

    Camino 1.0.5 MacIntosh

    Great analysis, Roderick. As a left libertarian who is working directly with the Paul campaign and the Paul grassroots, I can tell you with certainty that just about everybody is (to my very great surprise) interested in a long term, “bottom up” movement for freedom and limited government. It’s probably more of an artifact of Paul’s vast and spontaneous internet support than Paul’s politics or vision, but it’s fascinating to behold.

    Think of it this way: right now there’s a vast, energized bottom up movement that is being educated and polarized along libertarian lines. Many of these are not converts from conservatism or liberalism but rather newcomers to political consciousness in general. Ron Paul is a symbol of something, and just about everybody in the movement understands this on some level (there’s a bit of a cult of personality, but that’s a distraction easily seen through). If agorists think Paul is the wrong symbol, it’s still worth engaging this vast, nascent movement.

    For example, a left libertarian friend and I have been going to meetups, participating in sign wavings, marches, and guerrilla sign-hanging strikes. :) Sure, as anarchists we both feel a little wierd about chanting a name at people, or hanging signs up with some old guy’s face on it. But it’s not like we don’t know what’s going on, and we’re not afraid that we’ll somehow be hoodwinked back into statism or something. Like you’re saying, we struck that balance between pragmatism and principle in that irreducible way that only a lone individual can. Moreover, we’ve printed out dozens of copies of Carson’s “The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand” in pamphlet form and have been passing them out to sympathetic Paulistas.

    My point, I suppose, is that I think it’s slightly irrelevant to get caught up in a detailed analysis on this particular political issue (IMHO). Obviously, one should do what one thinks is best. I’m only trying to say that getting involved again with an active, engaged movement is a hugely satisfying use of one’s political energy. There’s a visceral, intensely social experience to such a down-and-dirty movement that libertarians like me really benefit from, as I’m wont to stay in my ivory tower. I truly believe that agorists could achieve many of their preliminary goals by using this unique moment in political consciousness – the same way that Ron Paul is using it (it’s really not of his making, anyway).

  10. anthro.pophago.us snippets of media, anthropology, design, culture and politics.

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    [...] Austro-Athenian Empire » To Paul Or Not To Paul, Part 3 [...]

  11. Rad Geek People’s Daily 2008-01-23 – Libertarian Gosplan

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    [...] Here’s Keith Halderman, supposedly replying to an argument by Roderick Long, to the effect that short-term success for the Ron Paul campaign might come at the cost of damage to the longer-term prospects for a fully free society: [...]