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	<title>Comments on: Puzzlement</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357331</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357331</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But you consider wandering across someone’s land “force.”&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Under some circumstances, sure.  Not under all.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Why cannot someone who wants to justify enforceable positive rights consider failing to meet one’s obligations “force” as well?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, I&#039;ve already explained why I think violating libertarian property rights counts as aggression and why I think failing to meet one&#039;s basic positive obligations doesn&#039;t.  Now maybe my arguments are no good; that&#039;s entirely possible. Maybe no other libertarians&#039; arguments for such conclusions are no good either; that&#039;s possible too.  But so far you I haven&#039;t seen you spending much time criticising any of these actual arguments; instead you just keep repeating the point that the libertarian position depends on regarding some things as aggression and others as not -- as if anyone had denied it.  

And I&#039;ve asked you a question that I don&#039;t think you ever answered, so here goes again:

Do you think all conceptions of force, or of aggression, are equally defensible?

Because if not, then the fact that people might disagree about what constitutes force or aggression does not by itself constitute an objection to an argument that relies on some particular conception thereof.  It just becomes like the freshman question &quot;who&#039;s to say ...?&quot; endlessly repeated in despite of all evidence or argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But you consider wandering across someone’s land “force.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Under some circumstances, sure.  Not under all.</p>
<blockquote><p>Why cannot someone who wants to justify enforceable positive rights consider failing to meet one’s obligations “force” as well?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, I&#8217;ve already explained why I think violating libertarian property rights counts as aggression and why I think failing to meet one&#8217;s basic positive obligations doesn&#8217;t.  Now maybe my arguments are no good; that&#8217;s entirely possible. Maybe no other libertarians&#8217; arguments for such conclusions are no good either; that&#8217;s possible too.  But so far you I haven&#8217;t seen you spending much time criticising any of these actual arguments; instead you just keep repeating the point that the libertarian position depends on regarding some things as aggression and others as not &#8212; as if anyone had denied it.  </p>
<p>And I&#8217;ve asked you a question that I don&#8217;t think you ever answered, so here goes again:</p>
<p>Do you think all conceptions of force, or of aggression, are equally defensible?</p>
<p>Because if not, then the fact that people might disagree about what constitutes force or aggression does not by itself constitute an objection to an argument that relies on some particular conception thereof.  It just becomes like the freshman question &#8220;who&#8217;s to say &#8230;?&#8221; endlessly repeated in despite of all evidence or argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene Callahan</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357328</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Callahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357328</guid>
		<description>&quot;But as I see it, the rejection of (basic) enforceable positive rights doesn’t depend on any such view; it just means that you shouldn’t respond to people with force unless they use force first.&quot;

But you consider wandering across someone&#039;s land &quot;force.&quot; Why cannot someone who wants to justify enforceable positive rights consider failing to meet one&#039;s obligations &quot;force&quot; as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But as I see it, the rejection of (basic) enforceable positive rights doesn’t depend on any such view; it just means that you shouldn’t respond to people with force unless they use force first.&#8221;</p>
<p>But you consider wandering across someone&#8217;s land &#8220;force.&#8221; Why cannot someone who wants to justify enforceable positive rights consider failing to meet one&#8217;s obligations &#8220;force&#8221; as well?</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357320</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357320</guid>
		<description>i) (1) Encroachment on the right to life = behavior that, if unchecked, will inevitably destroy a specific form of life.  (2) Life is encroached = the behavior described in (1) is present.

ii) Market interaction = the pattern of behavior between owners, manufacturers, suppliers, and buyers -- specifically, the price of oil relative to the long-run costs vs. benefits of the means of production (safety concerns), distribution (cartelization concerns), and consumption (uncritical consent concerns).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i) (1) Encroachment on the right to life = behavior that, if unchecked, will inevitably destroy a specific form of life.  (2) Life is encroached = the behavior described in (1) is present.</p>
<p>ii) Market interaction = the pattern of behavior between owners, manufacturers, suppliers, and buyers &#8212; specifically, the price of oil relative to the long-run costs vs. benefits of the means of production (safety concerns), distribution (cartelization concerns), and consumption (uncritical consent concerns).</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357318</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357318</guid>
		<description>a) Potential equivocation on &quot;encroachment&quot; between premises 1 and 2.  

b) Unclear meaning of &quot;market interaction&quot; in premises 2 and 3, leaving their truth-value unclear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a) Potential equivocation on &#8220;encroachment&#8221; between premises 1 and 2.  </p>
<p>b) Unclear meaning of &#8220;market interaction&#8221; in premises 2 and 3, leaving their truth-value unclear.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357317</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357317</guid>
		<description>How about this:

(1) Encroachment on the right to life can -- morally -- be met with proportionate force.

(2) Life is encroached by unsustainable yet persistent patterns of market interaction.

(3) The current intersection of market supply and market demand for energy manifests a relatively persistent pattern of market interaction.

(4) The market interaction for energy compels consumers into unsustainable forms of life [from (2) and (3)].

(5) The market interaction for energy can -- morally -- be met with proportionate force [from (1) and (4)].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about this:</p>
<p>(1) Encroachment on the right to life can &#8212; morally &#8212; be met with proportionate force.</p>
<p>(2) Life is encroached by unsustainable yet persistent patterns of market interaction.</p>
<p>(3) The current intersection of market supply and market demand for energy manifests a relatively persistent pattern of market interaction.</p>
<p>(4) The market interaction for energy compels consumers into unsustainable forms of life [from (2) and (3)].</p>
<p>(5) The market interaction for energy can &#8212; morally &#8212; be met with proportionate force [from (1) and (4)].</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357308</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357308</guid>
		<description>Yes.  Because enforcing them is logically part of enforcing the negative rights -- hence the &quot;derivative.&quot;

(Given that that&#039;s what&#039;s required for them to be derivative, the scope of positive rights thus generated is, I suspect, going to be narrower than you&#039;re hoping for.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.  Because enforcing them is logically part of enforcing the negative rights &#8212; hence the &#8220;derivative.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Given that that&#8217;s what&#8217;s required for them to be derivative, the scope of positive rights thus generated is, I suspect, going to be narrower than you&#8217;re hoping for.)</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357304</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 06:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357304</guid>
		<description>I should back up.  Are you saying that derivative positive rights &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; enforceable in the same way negative rights are enforceable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should back up.  Are you saying that derivative positive rights <em>are</em> enforceable in the same way negative rights are enforceable?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357302</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357302</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what you mean.  Can you clarify?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean.  Can you clarify?</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357299</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 01:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357299</guid>
		<description>If X has the derivative positive right to Y, then shouldn&#039;t the absence of Y in X call for more than the reason to supply Y to X?  I mean, at what point does the will to supply Y to X become the criteria?  If, for instance, voluntary means are manifestly insufficient, then what?  Give up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If X has the derivative positive right to Y, then shouldn&#8217;t the absence of Y in X call for more than the reason to supply Y to X?  I mean, at what point does the will to supply Y to X become the criteria?  If, for instance, voluntary means are manifestly insufficient, then what?  Give up?</p>
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		<title>By: Juan Garofalo</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2010/06/20/puzzlement/comment-page-1/#comment-357295</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan Garofalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=5575#comment-357295</guid>
		<description>&quot;Lawyers are obviously important in my utopia,&quot;

The proper word is not &#039;utopia&#039; then, it is dystopia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Lawyers are obviously important in my utopia,&#8221;</p>
<p>The proper word is not &#8216;utopia&#8217; then, it is dystopia.</p>
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