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	<title>Comments on: Justice As Squareness</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353671</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353671</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Praxeology doesn’t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy, as these concepts are central to action...&lt;/i&gt;

To praxeology: action is basic.  No-thing is more basic.  So praxeology&#039;s foundation is &lt;i&gt;prior&lt;/i&gt; to the split between subject and object.  We may &lt;i&gt;describe&lt;/i&gt; action in terms of subjects and/or objects exchanging, but that description is not fundamental.  

So, you&#039;re right that it doesn&#039;t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy in the sense that it doesn&#039;t have to.  From a praxeological perspective, that distinction doesn&#039;t arise.  

But then the praxeological perspective is limited.  Some &quot;interactions&quot; (in everyday experience) are fundamentally and thoroughly framed through a subject/object distinction.  That is, the &quot;actor&#039;s&quot; means or ends do not make sense without reference to another &quot;actor&quot; &lt;i&gt;as the means&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;as the end&lt;/i&gt;.  Praxeology, as it were, cannot see or make sense of these things because -- in them -- action is not basic.  In these situations, I&#039;m not describing what happens as a &lt;i&gt;subset&lt;/i&gt; of action, but something qualitatively different.    

In other words, I think we impress the object/subject dichotomy on the world of action.  At first, that just causes mis-perception.  Eventually though -- when enough people believe that to be basic -- we move in such a way that takes object/subject to be basic.  That movement is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; action.  Call it what you like, but don&#039;t call it &lt;i&gt;action&lt;/i&gt;.  

I&#039;m not  saying it&#039;s good or bad.  I&#039;m just saying that not everything we want to call action is actually action.  Just as not everything we want to call thinking is actually thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Praxeology doesn’t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy, as these concepts are central to action&#8230;</i></p>
<p>To praxeology: action is basic.  No-thing is more basic.  So praxeology&#8217;s foundation is <i>prior</i> to the split between subject and object.  We may <i>describe</i> action in terms of subjects and/or objects exchanging, but that description is not fundamental.  </p>
<p>So, you&#8217;re right that it doesn&#8217;t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy in the sense that it doesn&#8217;t have to.  From a praxeological perspective, that distinction doesn&#8217;t arise.  </p>
<p>But then the praxeological perspective is limited.  Some &#8220;interactions&#8221; (in everyday experience) are fundamentally and thoroughly framed through a subject/object distinction.  That is, the &#8220;actor&#8217;s&#8221; means or ends do not make sense without reference to another &#8220;actor&#8221; <i>as the means</i> or <i>as the end</i>.  Praxeology, as it were, cannot see or make sense of these things because &#8212; in them &#8212; action is not basic.  In these situations, I&#8217;m not describing what happens as a <i>subset</i> of action, but something qualitatively different.    </p>
<p>In other words, I think we impress the object/subject dichotomy on the world of action.  At first, that just causes mis-perception.  Eventually though &#8212; when enough people believe that to be basic &#8212; we move in such a way that takes object/subject to be basic.  That movement is <i>not</i> action.  Call it what you like, but don&#8217;t call it <i>action</i>.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not  saying it&#8217;s good or bad.  I&#8217;m just saying that not everything we want to call action is actually action.  Just as not everything we want to call thinking is actually thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: JOR</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353670</link>
		<dc:creator>JOR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353670</guid>
		<description>Praxeology doesn&#039;t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy, as these concepts are central to action; rather it abstracts away from psychological and circumstantial particulars. So it&#039;s true in a sense, then, that the god&#039;s eye view abstracts from object/subject, but to the extent that it does this, it isn&#039;t about particular actions of individuals at all, and can&#039;t be. It doesn&#039;t follow that we can arbitrarily declare that some subset of psychological and circumstantial particulars (but not others!) render the deliberate use of means to achieve desired ends, in their context, to be non-action. That&#039;s like saying geometry entitles us to declare that a particular white pillar isn&#039;t cylindrical, because it&#039;s white. It&#039;s just neither here nor there.

Humans are, among other things, animals and machines. One human using another&#039;s mechanical and animal capabilities for his own gain is engaged in action, the same as if he were using any other machine or animal. He&#039;s being an asshole, sure, but he&#039;s engaged in action. Likewise, the person being so used is engaged in action, so far as he chooses to acquiesce in this use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Praxeology doesn&#8217;t dissolve the object/subject dichotomy, as these concepts are central to action; rather it abstracts away from psychological and circumstantial particulars. So it&#8217;s true in a sense, then, that the god&#8217;s eye view abstracts from object/subject, but to the extent that it does this, it isn&#8217;t about particular actions of individuals at all, and can&#8217;t be. It doesn&#8217;t follow that we can arbitrarily declare that some subset of psychological and circumstantial particulars (but not others!) render the deliberate use of means to achieve desired ends, in their context, to be non-action. That&#8217;s like saying geometry entitles us to declare that a particular white pillar isn&#8217;t cylindrical, because it&#8217;s white. It&#8217;s just neither here nor there.</p>
<p>Humans are, among other things, animals and machines. One human using another&#8217;s mechanical and animal capabilities for his own gain is engaged in action, the same as if he were using any other machine or animal. He&#8217;s being an asshole, sure, but he&#8217;s engaged in action. Likewise, the person being so used is engaged in action, so far as he chooses to acquiesce in this use.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353669</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353669</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m just not dragging ethical content into my definition of action.&lt;/i&gt;

How does the indistinguishability between subject and object have anything to do with ethics?

&lt;i&gt;...it entails that slaves are incapable of action...&lt;/i&gt;

Not true.  I say that the recognition of and raising-awareness-to something beyond the subject/object dichotomy most certainly counts as action.  So, for instance, teachers, writers, and musicians are all in better places of action than oligarchs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m just not dragging ethical content into my definition of action.</i></p>
<p>How does the indistinguishability between subject and object have anything to do with ethics?</p>
<p><i>&#8230;it entails that slaves are incapable of action&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Not true.  I say that the recognition of and raising-awareness-to something beyond the subject/object dichotomy most certainly counts as action.  So, for instance, teachers, writers, and musicians are all in better places of action than oligarchs.</p>
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		<title>By: JOR</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353668</link>
		<dc:creator>JOR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353668</guid>
		<description>No, I am most certainly not conflating behavior with action, though I do think that line can be hard to draw in borderline cases (bashing someone&#039;s head in a fit of rage, for instance). I&#039;m just not dragging ethical content into my definition of action.

But, okay. Let&#039;s grant your point for the sake of argument. Since it entails that slaves are incapable of action, just as such, that means they are no longer humans, and so, the slaver counts as acting just as much as he would if he were keeping and using any other non-human capital.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I am most certainly not conflating behavior with action, though I do think that line can be hard to draw in borderline cases (bashing someone&#8217;s head in a fit of rage, for instance). I&#8217;m just not dragging ethical content into my definition of action.</p>
<p>But, okay. Let&#8217;s grant your point for the sake of argument. Since it entails that slaves are incapable of action, just as such, that means they are no longer humans, and so, the slaver counts as acting just as much as he would if he were keeping and using any other non-human capital.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353667</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353667</guid>
		<description>JOR, I&#039;m afraid you&#039;re conflating &lt;i&gt;behavior&lt;/i&gt; with &lt;i&gt;action&lt;/i&gt;.

I should add: when I say that &quot;raising awareness to the subject/object dichotomy [counts as action even in slavery situations,]&quot; that may be misleading.  By that, I simply mean, &lt;i&gt;causing recognition of the dichotomy&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;raising awareness to something beyond it&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JOR, I&#8217;m afraid you&#8217;re conflating <i>behavior</i> with <i>action</i>.</p>
<p>I should add: when I say that &#8220;raising awareness to the subject/object dichotomy [counts as action even in slavery situations,]&#8221; that may be misleading.  By that, I simply mean, <i>causing recognition of the dichotomy</i> and <i>raising awareness to something beyond it</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353666</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353666</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;After enslavement they have the option of resisting, attempting escape, working quietly, sucking up to their new masters, etc...&lt;/i&gt;

To me, the god&#039;s eye view (which I think praxeology embodies) dissolves the distinction between subject and object.  But, in all of the cases you list, choice is framed by a subject/object dichotomy.  Even attempting escape means a person-turned-object trying to free itself from a subject.  My contention is simply that these situations -- in which a person is turned object -- disallow for any action* by anyone.

*With the exception of raising awareness to the subject/object dichotomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>After enslavement they have the option of resisting, attempting escape, working quietly, sucking up to their new masters, etc&#8230;</i></p>
<p>To me, the god&#8217;s eye view (which I think praxeology embodies) dissolves the distinction between subject and object.  But, in all of the cases you list, choice is framed by a subject/object dichotomy.  Even attempting escape means a person-turned-object trying to free itself from a subject.  My contention is simply that these situations &#8212; in which a person is turned object &#8212; disallow for any action* by anyone.</p>
<p>*With the exception of raising awareness to the subject/object dichotomy.</p>
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		<title>By: JOR</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353665</link>
		<dc:creator>JOR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353665</guid>
		<description>The god&#039;s eye view would be that the thief is engaging in action, and the owner probably isn&#039;t (especially if he isn&#039;t aware what&#039;s happening). The slaves may well engage in action by resisting capture, or trying to flee, or surrendering and collaborating, though it&#039;s true that &quot;being taken as a slave&quot; is not an action itself. After enslavement they have the option of resisting, attempting escape, working quietly, sucking up to their new masters, &lt;i&gt;etc.&lt;/i&gt;; it&#039;s true that some of these actions are risky, and that their realistic courses are restricted, but that&#039;s true of anyone, anywhere. If our options weren&#039;t restricted, we wouldn&#039;t even be making choices in the first place. We could, as Mises says, even achieve ends without the use of means at all; we would be omnipotent gods, and all of the universe just would be exactly as we prefered, simply. 

Choice follows from scarcity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The god&#8217;s eye view would be that the thief is engaging in action, and the owner probably isn&#8217;t (especially if he isn&#8217;t aware what&#8217;s happening). The slaves may well engage in action by resisting capture, or trying to flee, or surrendering and collaborating, though it&#8217;s true that &#8220;being taken as a slave&#8221; is not an action itself. After enslavement they have the option of resisting, attempting escape, working quietly, sucking up to their new masters, <i>etc.</i>; it&#8217;s true that some of these actions are risky, and that their realistic courses are restricted, but that&#8217;s true of anyone, anywhere. If our options weren&#8217;t restricted, we wouldn&#8217;t even be making choices in the first place. We could, as Mises says, even achieve ends without the use of means at all; we would be omnipotent gods, and all of the universe just would be exactly as we prefered, simply. </p>
<p>Choice follows from scarcity.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353664</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353664</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If you’re talking about deliberately enslaving a bunch of people and forcing them to grow cash crops for you, or breaking into someone’s home to steal their T.V. set, then I’d say that’s an action...&lt;/i&gt;

I want to take praxeology as seriously as possible -- experimentally to adopt what you call a meta-praxeological view. :)  I think you&#039;d agree that action entails choice while re-action entails the absence of choice.  But, when Larry enslaves a bunch of people, where is their choice?  When Jimmy steals a T.V. set, where is the owner&#039;s choice?  Who says that praxeology is limited to one person&#039;s point of view?  Isn&#039;t praxeology stronger if we understand it as a god&#039;s eye view?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If you’re talking about deliberately enslaving a bunch of people and forcing them to grow cash crops for you, or breaking into someone’s home to steal their T.V. set, then I’d say that’s an action&#8230;</i></p>
<p>I want to take praxeology as seriously as possible &#8212; experimentally to adopt what you call a meta-praxeological view. <img src='http://aaeblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   I think you&#8217;d agree that action entails choice while re-action entails the absence of choice.  But, when Larry enslaves a bunch of people, where is their choice?  When Jimmy steals a T.V. set, where is the owner&#8217;s choice?  Who says that praxeology is limited to one person&#8217;s point of view?  Isn&#8217;t praxeology stronger if we understand it as a god&#8217;s eye view?</p>
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		<title>By: JOR</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353662</link>
		<dc:creator>JOR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353662</guid>
		<description>Well, it depends on how strict you want to be in defining a reaction. If you&#039;re talking about something like kicking out and hitting some poor dude as an involuntary reflex, then yeah, that&#039;s not an action. If you&#039;re talking about deliberately enslaving a bunch of people and forcing them to grow cash crops for you, or breaking into someone&#039;s home to steal their T.V. set, then I&#039;d say that&#039;s an action, even if it doesn&#039;t serve your true ultimate ends by cultivating a virtuous character or whatnot; an action is no less an action because of the actor&#039;s imperfect knowledge of what best serves his aims. If you&#039;re talking about bashing someone&#039;s head in in a fit of rage, that seems like it could go either way. People in fits of rage can and do choose whether to act on that feeling, and if so, how.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it depends on how strict you want to be in defining a reaction. If you&#8217;re talking about something like kicking out and hitting some poor dude as an involuntary reflex, then yeah, that&#8217;s not an action. If you&#8217;re talking about deliberately enslaving a bunch of people and forcing them to grow cash crops for you, or breaking into someone&#8217;s home to steal their T.V. set, then I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s an action, even if it doesn&#8217;t serve your true ultimate ends by cultivating a virtuous character or whatnot; an action is no less an action because of the actor&#8217;s imperfect knowledge of what best serves his aims. If you&#8217;re talking about bashing someone&#8217;s head in in a fit of rage, that seems like it could go either way. People in fits of rage can and do choose whether to act on that feeling, and if so, how.</p>
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		<title>By: MBH</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/09/25/justice-as-squareness/comment-page-1/#comment-353660</link>
		<dc:creator>MBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3729#comment-353660</guid>
		<description>You add more clear rules for when the word &#039;human&#039; can and cannot be applied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You add more clear rules for when the word &#8216;human&#8217; can and cannot be applied.</p>
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