42 responses to “Wild Cards”

  1. MBH

    Firefox 3.0.13 Ubuntu

    Funny. This morning, I responded to a right-libertarian on Facebook. He was taking the usual line that Obama talks but doesn’t walk.

    I know that in these circles here, the Obama administration is mostly classic statism. But sometimes it’s not. And during those times, shouldn’t we point really loudly? I don’t think that state-socialists (or the elites who reap the rewards of their politics) will benefit as much as the left-libertarian train of thought.

    I didn’t touch on all of Roderick’s points. They weren’t published yet. But I hope I’m barking up the right tree:

    You ask if *saying* you want competition is significant. He also *said* that 90% of the insurance industry in Alabama is controlled by one company. Those were only words. And yet at the same time, those words represent a *fact*. You don’t th…ink there’s beauracracy on the corporate side as well as the governmental side? The objective is to eliminate the beauracracy; the side-effect will be more cooperation within companies. And more cooperation within companies means more competitive companies. Isn’t that what we want? What’s the difference between beauracratic control by a company and beauracratic control by a government? Can’t corporate control eliminate competition in the same way as governmental control? Isn’t Alabama proof?

  2. Kevin

    Firefox 3.5.2.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP

    Are these six commitments necessary, sufficient or necessary and sufficient for being a left-libertarian? If necessary and sufficient, or if jointly sufficient, I’m a lefty. But if merely necessary, enumerate the rest!

  3. Kevin

    Firefox 3.5.2.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP

    Ah, true. But you, dear Roderick, must have higher standards! Stop beating around the bush! Enumerate! Articulate! Prognosticate!

  4. Anon73

    Firefox 3.0.13.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP

    Red spades and black hearts are evil? Or perhaps, to put a Keith Preston-esque slant on the result, that which is different is necessarily perceived as undesirable and causes personal distress, which would logically lead to people voluntarily associating with only the familiar the the known of their own culture/ethnic group.

    1. Leif

      Firefox 3.5.3 Windows XP

      Then we must make the familiar strange and the strange familiar.

  5. Ryan

    Firefox 3.5.3.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP

    Very insightful. Thank you.

  6. Stephan Kinsella

    Safari MacIntosh

    Roderick: “1. Big business and big government are (for the most part) natural allies.”

    Do you mean big business as it exists in today’s world, or big business per se? If the former, you have a point (and from my quick read I don’t disagree with any of your other points). But to argue for the latter interpretation would imply that there could be no big business in a free society.

    1. Darian

      Firefox 3.5.3 Windows XP

      When big government exists, it is a natural ally of big business because they need each other to hold on to power.

      As to whether big business could exist in a free society, I guess it depends on what your definition of big business is. I think there could be big business in a free society, but due to the dynamics of the market and the ethos that would need to exist to create a free society, there would be more competition and less hierarchy.

      1. Stephan Kinsella

        Firefox 3.5.3 MacIntosh

        @Darian: “As to whether big business could exist in a free society, I guess it depends on what your definition of big business is.”

        Exactly. That’s why 1, as stated, is too vaguely defined and potentially problematic. And stuff.

        “When big government exists, it is a natural ally of big business because they need each other to hold on to power.”

        Well, when big gov’t exists, lots of institutions and individuals are distorted and corrupted.

        “I think there could be big business in a free society, but due to the dynamics of the market and the ethos that would need to exist to create a free society, there would be more competition and less hierarchy.”

        Meh. I’m not convinced. I think this is a bit of an overreach. We don’t know.

        1. Darian

          Firefox 3.5.3 Windows XP

          Maybe “Government and business often work together to entrench their power and prevent competition”. After all, the mayor and his good ol’ boys might not be big enough to control much, but they might be big enough to control the local economy.

          It is difficult to make accurate and detailed political one-liners, but it’s a task worth doing.

        2. Tracy Saboe

          Firefox 3.0.14 Windows XP

          Stephan I think the issue is, there probably WOULDN’T be big business, big charity, or big ANY-Organizational hierarchy in the absense of the state because of the bureacratic problems making too big companies uncompetitive.

          There’s an optimum medium size of a company, and the reason companies get bigger then that is because of state protections.

    2. Andy Stedman

      Firefox 3.0.10 Windows XP

      Stephan — not necessarily. For example, insurance companies and big government are in some ways natural allies. The government requires us to purchase insurance, so the companies get more business and can even charge more for it. Then they pay kickbacks (campaign contributions) to politicians. On could agree with that statement and still not think that there would be no insurance companies in a free society.

  7. Six Theses of Libertarian Rhetoric

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    [...] Rhetoric Posted by Brad Spangler on Sep 11, 2009 in Odds & Ends • No comments In a blog post discussing why many people fail to even recognize things that don’t fit their expectations, [...]

  8. Michael

    MSIE 8.0 Windows XP

    While I agree with your six points (and even copied and pasted them in my journal, with proper credit given to you), I think that they pose a question. What is the point of positioning yourself as a “left-libertarian?” If the phrase “left” in modern mainstream political debate has become tainted by statists, why gowith the label that you are always so willing to self-apply? You addressed in your excellent essays “Left & Right: 40 Years Later” and “Whip Conflation Now” your concerns with using the term “capitalism” to refer to genuine free (or “freed”) markets. Your use of the prefix in your preferred political label seems inconsistent with this logic.

    Moreover, as you have pointed out several times, there are conflicting definitions already available for the term “left-libertarianism.” There’s also the Vallentyne/Steiner position, as well as the use by paleolibertarians in the 1990s to mean the so-called “beltway libertarians” at Cato and Reason. Why confuse non-libertarians further by using an already muddled term?

    I don’t have an alternative suggestion (at least not right now). I respect you and your ideas, Roderick. In fact, you’re one of my favorite libertarian thinkers and writers. I just want to understand your usage of the term “left-libertarian” given the above. Thank you.

    1. Darian

      Firefox 3.5.3 Windows XP

      I think that adding “left” adds precision because we seek genuinely egalitarian and socially progressive ends, and cuz we’re radicals. Charles Johnson put it well: http://radgeek.com/gt/2009/05/19/motorhome-diaries-interview-agorism-counter-economics/

  9. Neverfox

    Firefox 3.0.8.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP 64-bit/Server 2003

    “Red Spades and Black Hearts” is either a) a great anarchist band or album name, b) a great slogan for the ALL or c) both.

  10. Marja Erwin

    Safari MacIntosh

    I am just puzzled how anyone could reach the point of seeing it as a black spade with a red border, let alone confusion over whether it is a card. It is a red spade.

    Do these people think and perceive in fundamentally different ways than I do? Do most people?

    1. Anon73

      Firefox 3.0.13.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows XP

      Maybe holding on to firmly established categories benefited our evolutionary ancestors. People who were sensitive, open to new ideas, creative, and otherwise not bound to their prejudice could not survive and reproduce, so instead the bias, prejudice cavemen did.

  11. js

    Firefox 3.0.13 Windows XP

    Yes, I think there have been a lot of psychological experiments that basically make the point that people naturally interpret things using existing categorizations.

    As for these points:

    1. Big business and big government are (for the most part) natural allies.

    4. A genuine policy of intervention on behalf of the weak, if liberals actually tried it, wouldn’t work either, since the nature of government power would automatically warp it toward the interests of the elite.

    5. A genuine policy of non-intervention and free markets, if conservatives actually tried it, would work, since free competition would empower ordinary people at the expense of the elite.

    But I think there’s another point here: a genuine policy of non-intervention can never be (and has never been) tried as a form of government because big business and big government are natural allies (see point #1).

    So … anarchy?

  12. Baker’s dozen links dump

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    [...] Long breaks down the major theses of left [...]

  13. Six Theses of Libertarian Rhetoric « Little Alex in Wonderland

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    [...] a blog post discussing why many people fail to even recognize things that don’t fit their expectations, [...]

  14. Big Charity « LewRockwell.com Blog

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    [...] Roderick of Long in a recent post asks us to consider the following proposition: “1. Big business and big government are (for [...]

  15. Down with Big Charity!

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    [...] Roderick of Long in a recent post asks us to consider the following proposition: “1. Big business and big government are (for [...]

  16. Brian Drake

    Firefox 3.0.13 MacIntosh

    “since free competition would empower ordinary people at the expense of the elite. ”

    I disagree with this. In voluntary market exchange, BOTH parties expect to benefit, otherwise, they would not trade. No one is “empowered” at the “expense” of anyone else.

    It is true that in free competition, the unjust acquisition of power is eroded/eliminated, so in that regard, you could say “at the expense of the elite”, but only with an explanation.

    Without the initiation of aggression, no one operates at “the expense” of anyone else. If someone becomes wealthy (“elite”) in a truly free market, it is only because they have succeeded in satisfying their customers, not because of “empowerment” at the “expense” of anyone.

  17. Big Charity | Austrian Economics Blog

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    [...] Long in a recent post asks us to consider the following proposition: “1. Big business and big government are (for [...]

  18. Big Charity | Austrian Economics Blog

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    [...] “1. Big business and big government are (for the most part) natural allies.” As I noted there, “Do you mean big business as it exists in today’s world, or big business per se? If [...]

  19. Bob Kaercher

    MSIE 6.0 Windows XP

    “It is true that in free competition, the unjust acquisition of power is eroded/eliminated, so in that regard, you could say ‘at the expense of the elite’, but only with an explanation.”

    I think it’s pretty clear that that is in fact what Roderick is saying.

  20. Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu

    Firefox 3.5.2 Gentoo

    Hi,

    I generally find myself in agreement with the post, however I doubt the following:

    “4. A genuine policy of intervention on behalf of the weak, if liberals actually tried it, wouldn’t work either, since the nature of government power would automatically warp it toward the interests of the elite.”

    I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the efficiency a democracy has in achieving its _stated_ goals. Sure, I agree any party would strive for a neat balance between two resources: wealth (big business) and votes (popular support). But there’s no reason to jump to the conclusion that big business or the elite is the single variable in this equation, apart from being as catchy as a conspiracy theory.

    Secondly, I don’t see the purpose of this thesis, as any libertarian would agree that government intervention (with its consequences) on behalf of the weak is not justified.

    So if individualist principles is what we support (anarchy per se needn’t even be thrown directly into the discussion), why beat around the bush? Bringing up big business into the discussion and putting them into a category certainly doesn’t help clarify the position (i.e. “we’re against all intervention”).

  21. Six Theses for Libertarians | LILA RAJIVA: The Mind-Body Politic

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    [...] Roderick Long at Austro-Athenian blog makes a list of principles he thinks libertarians should emphasizes in public interaction to define themselves as a clear cut alternative to either conservatives or liberals: [...]

  22. Jeremy

    Safari MacIntosh

    The 6 theses are great distillations of the politics we all advocate, but… frankly, I want to get the Long critique of Kuhn! One of the most influential works on my thought, I’d love to see you poke holes in it, Roderick.

    1. MBH

      Firefox 3.5.3.NETCLR3.5.30729 Windows Vista

      Seconded!