Well, if you’re going to get all originalist on us, Stephan, the original left-right spectrum ran from ultra-royalist mercantilists who believed that the State was the instrument of God on Earth, to radical free marketeers who favored the abolition of State control in the name of the Rights of Man [sic]. (Bastiat sat on the Left; so did Proudhon.) Doesn’t seem especially confused to me; seems like a pretty straightforward spectrum from statists to anti-statists, with a laissez-faire economist and an avowed anarchist holding down the leftward end.

He describes himself as being culturally conservative, but does this make one “right”? I don’t think so. What does culturally conservative mean? How one dresses? That one is employed or not in jail? That one has an education and a career, is not flamboyant, and enjoys some traditional things like western culture and food etc.? Does these things make one a “rightist”?

I don’t think so. So what else is there? Hoppe is not, contrary to assertions otherwise, personally uptight or homophobic; he associates with all sorts and is very multicultural; as a radical libertarian he supports the right to be a cocaine seller or prostitute, opposes the state itself, and of course the state-church relationship; opposes outlawing sodomy, atheism, opposes a state religion; is pro-choice as far as I know, etc.

The only substantive position I can think of that one might call him rightist on are his immigration views, but he is an anarchist who opposes the state and its immigration policy and apparatus, not a typically rightist view on immigration. I don’t think he’s a leftist (though some of his views might be characterized this way by some on the right), but I don’t think he’s a rightist. I certainly am not. I am neither. I despise both, since they are both statist, and I am a libertarian, which means something, to me.

“‘If certain animals are claimed to be golden retrievers, then to the extent their characteristics are canine, they are not “golden retriever” but shared by all dogs; to the extent they are not canine, then… they are not canine.’”

The problem is golden retriever is indisputably one type of dog, and golden retrieverness is not incompatible with or unrelated to its dogness.

Whereas, libertarianism is a political theory concerned with the proper use of interpersonal violence, and holds a distinct view about when it is appropriate or legitimate. So to the extent leftish views are compatible with the libertarian focus and view on aggression, it’s either part of libertarianism already, or it’s just orthogonal to it, sort of like my love for riding dirt bikes is compatible with libertarianism but not part of it. And if the leftish views are incompatible with it, they are not part of it.

“Likewise: the characteristics that make a libertarian a left-libertarian aren’t necessary to being a libertarian (otherwise all libertarians would be left-libertarians), but they aren’t merely extraneous add-ons like “liking jazz” (otherwise left-libertarians wouldn’t be a kind of libertarian).”

Okay, I am with you so far–but the problem is that I think the “left-right” spectrum is both ambiguous and vague, and also rests on unlibertarian assumptions (as we libertarians should well know, as we have deplored the simplistic, inacccurate, confusing, statist left-right spectrum for a long time).

It seems to me you leftish/thicker types want to have it both ways. You want to trot out the left- prefix as if it makes your libertarianism better; as if it does mean something; hence your comments about bossism and “exclusionism” (? are we now also against “discrimination” and “prejudice”?). But when pushed, you seem to reluctantly admit these views are not libertarian strictly speaking.

I’m just a libertarian. I think we can learn something from some of the insights of leftists, as well as the insights of mathematicians, computer scientists, hunters, and convicts.

To quote Stephan: What does all this mean? Who knows. Nobody.

Stephan, would you care to explain how Hoppe is not on the right?

This seems like another version of the position I gave my golden retriever argument against.

Support? What does that mean? All libertarians support the *right* of workers to (try to) organize. If they go beyond this type of support to some more active type of “support,” they do so not qua libertarians.

Stephan,

Would you also buy the following argument?

If certain animals are claimed to be golden retrievers, then to the extent their characteristics are canine, they are not “golden retriever” but shared by all dogs; to the extent they are not canine, then… they are not canine.

If not, what’s the difference? The characteristics that make a dog a golden retriever aren’t necessary to being a dog (otherwise all dogs would be golden retrievers), but they aren’t merely extraneous add-ons like “being within 500 yards of a stop sign” (otherwise golden retrievers wouldn’t be a kind of dog). Being a dog-within-500-yards-of-a-stop-sign isn’t a way of being a dog, but being a golden retriever is a way of being a dog. (Golden retrievers are hoper dogs, in Aristotelean terminology.)

Likewise: the characteristics that make a libertarian a left-libertarian aren’t necessary to being a libertarian (otherwise all libertarians would be left-libertarians), but they aren’t merely extraneous add-ons like “liking jazz” (otherwise left-libertarians wouldn’t be a kind of libertarian). Being a libertarian-who-likes-jazz isn’t a way of being a libertarian, but being a left-libertarian is a way of being a libertarian.

“Roderick often references workers entering into agreements in which they sign the product of their labor over to management. After that point it’s hard to see the distinction between his position and the right-libertarian position (in matters of labor). But right-libertarians think the post-agreement is a default position. That is the distinction.”

this is nonsense. Neither Hoppe, Rockwell, Rothbard, nor I would say that there is a default position. So is “right-libertarian” a straw man?

“Roderick untangles these two positions. The left holds that workers necessarily own their labor and its production–to begin with–what the worker chooses to do with it is their decision. The right holds that management owns workers’ labor to begin with. The right sees it as a default position. The left sees it as a matter of choice.”

Libertarians see it as a matter of choice, of course. If the left does, congrats to them–they agree with us on this. But given their support of unions, their ridiculous economic views on land and labor, I don’t think they do. But if they do–welcome to the libertarian cause. BUt it ain’t left, buster.