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	<title>Comments on: Afghanarchy</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352394</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352394</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How likely would it be that if such a company (or better yet, companies) were to come into being, it (they) would be allowed to provide any kind of service before the compassionate international community put the effort to a halt&lt;/i&gt;

Well, that&#039;s something that Gil Guillory is &lt;a href=&quot;http://gil.guillory.googlepages.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;very carefully testing&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How likely would it be that if such a company (or better yet, companies) were to come into being, it (they) would be allowed to provide any kind of service before the compassionate international community put the effort to a halt</i></p>
<p>Well, that&#8217;s something that Gil Guillory is <a href="http://gil.guillory.googlepages.com" rel="nofollow">very carefully testing</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352384</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352384</guid>
		<description>Anarchy is (philosophically, at least) opposition to coercion. For it to properly exist, it would seem to me a society first needs principled opposition to coercion.

In other words, I don&#039;t think anarchy exists without /some/ (probably rather significant) societal value placed on non-coercion. Though that /might/ be in accord with people&#039;s &quot;natural&quot; sense of morality (or at least not too much of a stretch from what is intuitively obvious in a civilized setting), people are almost invariably educated, in the modern world, to believe in the nation-state paradigm (and hence to tolerate marauders and /or wait around for the strongest one to win—or for the least evil to show himself so’s to give him their support, etc).

Again, though, the state is just /organized/ coercion. Localized banditry and violation of human rights are still coercion – a state is not required; all that is required is powerlessness /or/ acquiescence.

That said, another problem which tends to prohibit a /functional/ anarchy in this day-and-age, and one that I find seldom discussed despite its seeming great importance, is the fact that institutions (like the theoretical &quot;insurance companies&quot; that one always hears about in market anarchist theory) are, if not entirely precluded from existing at all within the dominant nation-state paradigm, certainly precluded from /tending/ to exist. I&#039;ll be damned if I’m gonna believe that proponents of the nation-state are going to let alternate paradigms come into being (let alone flourish)!

The nation-state would seem to me to crowd out all competing models (by design, in fact – albeit not necessarily by /conscious/ design). For example, how likely would you think it to find a company dedicated to providing non-coercive governmental services going public anytime soon on the NYSE? How likely would it be that if such a company  (or better yet, companies) were to come into being, it (they) would be allowed to provide any kind of service before the compassionate international community put the effort to a halt – either militaristically and / or by clamping down on the finances of the company / companies in question?

So, yes, I would agree that militaristic meddling is a significant factor in the deteriorating situations in Afghanistan and (apparently, though I’ll admit I’m not terribly knowledgeable on the subject) in Somalia. However, I find the nation-state to be a jealous god, and one unlikely to allow something as “amoral” as a stateless territory, not to mention the institutions that would allow felicitous existence therein, to exist untrammeled for any length of time. Yeah, people are definitely equipped to get along without /necessarily/ resorting to violence, but people are left little recourse against gangs of bandits when moral defense agents aren’t allowed to come into being or do their jobs (by exceptionally large, well-funded gangs of bandits called “nation-states,” of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anarchy is (philosophically, at least) opposition to coercion. For it to properly exist, it would seem to me a society first needs principled opposition to coercion.</p>
<p>In other words, I don&#8217;t think anarchy exists without /some/ (probably rather significant) societal value placed on non-coercion. Though that /might/ be in accord with people&#8217;s &#8220;natural&#8221; sense of morality (or at least not too much of a stretch from what is intuitively obvious in a civilized setting), people are almost invariably educated, in the modern world, to believe in the nation-state paradigm (and hence to tolerate marauders and /or wait around for the strongest one to win—or for the least evil to show himself so’s to give him their support, etc).</p>
<p>Again, though, the state is just /organized/ coercion. Localized banditry and violation of human rights are still coercion – a state is not required; all that is required is powerlessness /or/ acquiescence.</p>
<p>That said, another problem which tends to prohibit a /functional/ anarchy in this day-and-age, and one that I find seldom discussed despite its seeming great importance, is the fact that institutions (like the theoretical &#8220;insurance companies&#8221; that one always hears about in market anarchist theory) are, if not entirely precluded from existing at all within the dominant nation-state paradigm, certainly precluded from /tending/ to exist. I&#8217;ll be damned if I’m gonna believe that proponents of the nation-state are going to let alternate paradigms come into being (let alone flourish)!</p>
<p>The nation-state would seem to me to crowd out all competing models (by design, in fact – albeit not necessarily by /conscious/ design). For example, how likely would you think it to find a company dedicated to providing non-coercive governmental services going public anytime soon on the NYSE? How likely would it be that if such a company  (or better yet, companies) were to come into being, it (they) would be allowed to provide any kind of service before the compassionate international community put the effort to a halt – either militaristically and / or by clamping down on the finances of the company / companies in question?</p>
<p>So, yes, I would agree that militaristic meddling is a significant factor in the deteriorating situations in Afghanistan and (apparently, though I’ll admit I’m not terribly knowledgeable on the subject) in Somalia. However, I find the nation-state to be a jealous god, and one unlikely to allow something as “amoral” as a stateless territory, not to mention the institutions that would allow felicitous existence therein, to exist untrammeled for any length of time. Yeah, people are definitely equipped to get along without /necessarily/ resorting to violence, but people are left little recourse against gangs of bandits when moral defense agents aren’t allowed to come into being or do their jobs (by exceptionally large, well-funded gangs of bandits called “nation-states,” of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352319</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352319</guid>
		<description>Though the good news is that bloodfeud-based polycentric systems can evolve into restitution-based polycentric systems -- as witness Iceland and pre-Norman England.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though the good news is that bloodfeud-based polycentric systems can evolve into restitution-based polycentric systems &#8212; as witness Iceland and pre-Norman England.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex J.</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352315</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352315</guid>
		<description>Somebody held that all of the naturally arising legal codes were the same and that this supported natural law. Pashtunwali is not the same as, say, Gragas, and it is not as successful at maintaining peace. The chief flaws, as I see them, are these: First, if someone wrongs you, it is considered acceptable to seek vengeance against his relatives, and not just the offender. Second, one is expected to support one&#039;s kinsmen in any conflict, even they are in the wrong. Somalis are expected to show similar chauvinism to their clansmen. In &quot;War Before Civilization&quot;, Keeley quotes tribesmen from New Guinea lamenting the fact that they have to fight battles started by their kinsmen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somebody held that all of the naturally arising legal codes were the same and that this supported natural law. Pashtunwali is not the same as, say, Gragas, and it is not as successful at maintaining peace. The chief flaws, as I see them, are these: First, if someone wrongs you, it is considered acceptable to seek vengeance against his relatives, and not just the offender. Second, one is expected to support one&#8217;s kinsmen in any conflict, even they are in the wrong. Somalis are expected to show similar chauvinism to their clansmen. In &#8220;War Before Civilization&#8221;, Keeley quotes tribesmen from New Guinea lamenting the fact that they have to fight battles started by their kinsmen.</p>
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		<title>By: John Markley</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352314</link>
		<dc:creator>John Markley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352314</guid>
		<description>Adding on this, people sometimes speak of anarchic areas as if they have no prior history, or as if the government is gone because the rulers just decided out of the blue to quit.  However, most people want a state to exist, and the most powerful people usually want it most of all.  Thus, in the real world, places usually become anarchic because they became so violent or dysfunctional while the state still existed that they could no longer support the existence of a state.  The parasite killed the host.  Our real-world examples of anarchy are therefore pretty much guaranteed to be devastated societies to begin with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adding on this, people sometimes speak of anarchic areas as if they have no prior history, or as if the government is gone because the rulers just decided out of the blue to quit.  However, most people want a state to exist, and the most powerful people usually want it most of all.  Thus, in the real world, places usually become anarchic because they became so violent or dysfunctional while the state still existed that they could no longer support the existence of a state.  The parasite killed the host.  Our real-world examples of anarchy are therefore pretty much guaranteed to be devastated societies to begin with.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy Saboe</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352312</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy Saboe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352312</guid>
		<description>Lots of people for some reason equated the violence in Iraq an anarchy too. And I was like, &quot;WTF?&quot;

The American Federal GOVERNMENT was occupying the territory, Saddam Husein a DICTATOR, had just been deposed.

You call that statelessness? 

Tracy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of people for some reason equated the violence in Iraq an anarchy too. And I was like, &#8220;WTF?&#8221;</p>
<p>The American Federal GOVERNMENT was occupying the territory, Saddam Husein a DICTATOR, had just been deposed.</p>
<p>You call that statelessness? </p>
<p>Tracy</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Garner</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352311</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Garner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352311</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point: On Free Talk Live, when the Somalia thing comes up, Ian is always quick to point out that Somalia&#039;s statelessness didn&#039;t come about as a result of most people being persuaded that it is wrong to agreess against another or steal from them, and so things are bound to be very different there than they would be if statelessness came about (partly) due to the spreading of libertarian beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point: On Free Talk Live, when the Somalia thing comes up, Ian is always quick to point out that Somalia&#8217;s statelessness didn&#8217;t come about as a result of most people being persuaded that it is wrong to agreess against another or steal from them, and so things are bound to be very different there than they would be if statelessness came about (partly) due to the spreading of libertarian beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon73</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352309</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon73</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352309</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point Jesse and it has been made before, namely that if all places are controlled by government then any individual place that collapsed would be unlikely to become anarchist since neighboring aggressive states would attack it (as has happened with Somalia).  And further if all places were anarchic then a region that collapsed would be unlikely to evolve a strong central state (since people could just leave it and escape elsewhere).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point Jesse and it has been made before, namely that if all places are controlled by government then any individual place that collapsed would be unlikely to become anarchist since neighboring aggressive states would attack it (as has happened with Somalia).  And further if all places were anarchic then a region that collapsed would be unlikely to evolve a strong central state (since people could just leave it and escape elsewhere).</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Walker</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352308</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352308</guid>
		<description>Set aside the US&#039;s efforts to prop up a central state. Is there any reason to believe the warlord territories outside Kabul have been in any sense polycentric in the time since the Taliban fell?

If a polycentric system evolved into the current crop of mini-states, that would be a point against the anarchists. But if a bunch of mini-states failed to evolve into anarchy, I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s a point against anybody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Set aside the US&#8217;s efforts to prop up a central state. Is there any reason to believe the warlord territories outside Kabul have been in any sense polycentric in the time since the Taliban fell?</p>
<p>If a polycentric system evolved into the current crop of mini-states, that would be a point against the anarchists. But if a bunch of mini-states failed to evolve into anarchy, I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s a point against anybody.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/07/03/afghanarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-352306</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Carson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 05:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=3073#comment-352306</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d respond the same as I do to liberals who hold up Somalia as an example of real-world anarchy:  it&#039;s not too surprising that you get all kinds of social pathologies when a centralized state collapses and leaves a vacuum, without any viable alternatives ready to take its place.  It would take up a lot of space just quoting all the anarchists who stated the same commonplace:  that if the state disappeared tomorrow, but everything else remained the same, it would be rebuilt in no time.  The state causes civil society to atrophy; anarchists desire to supplant the state with voluntary forms of association, but it may be slow going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d respond the same as I do to liberals who hold up Somalia as an example of real-world anarchy:  it&#8217;s not too surprising that you get all kinds of social pathologies when a centralized state collapses and leaves a vacuum, without any viable alternatives ready to take its place.  It would take up a lot of space just quoting all the anarchists who stated the same commonplace:  that if the state disappeared tomorrow, but everything else remained the same, it would be rebuilt in no time.  The state causes civil society to atrophy; anarchists desire to supplant the state with voluntary forms of association, but it may be slow going.</p>
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