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	<title>Comments on: A Match Made in Hell</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: Attack the System &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Updated News Digest April 26, 2009</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350171</link>
		<dc:creator>Attack the System &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Updated News Digest April 26, 2009</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 03:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350171</guid>
		<description>[...] A Match Made in Hell by Roderick Long [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Match Made in Hell by Roderick Long [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Paul</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350118</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350118</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve wondered if it would be better for courts to &quot;force&quot; the parties to provide a full contract, rather than providing a default, by refusing to agree to enforce any incomplete contract. Even if this is dealt with simply, with a court having popular sample contracts readily available for the parties to copy, I think this would be an improvement. The sample contracts could even just refer to some law or final arbiter to make them &quot;complete&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve wondered if it would be better for courts to &#8220;force&#8221; the parties to provide a full contract, rather than providing a default, by refusing to agree to enforce any incomplete contract. Even if this is dealt with simply, with a court having popular sample contracts readily available for the parties to copy, I think this would be an improvement. The sample contracts could even just refer to some law or final arbiter to make them &#8220;complete&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Araglin</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350116</link>
		<dc:creator>Araglin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350116</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, I think Spencer made a similar proposal  somewhere about how (under his scheme) it would be possible for matriarchal, &#039;reverse coverture&#039; type marriages to existing alongside more traditional ones...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, I think Spencer made a similar proposal  somewhere about how (under his scheme) it would be possible for matriarchal, &#8216;reverse coverture&#8217; type marriages to existing alongside more traditional ones&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Araglin</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350114</link>
		<dc:creator>Araglin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350114</guid>
		<description>A few thoughts regarding the libertarian-ness (or lack thereof) of family law, and how the law might be improved to render it more liberarian:

The property division and alimony aspects of divorce degrees to a large extent follow from what one can think of as off-the-rack or default provisions that will govern any marriage that one enters into unless or until one &#039;opts out&#039; via an ante-nuptual or post-nuptual agreement.  

Given the perennial problem of &#039;incompleteness of contracting,&#039; all law -- even polycentrically-generated law -- *must* supply default terms of some sort or other.  Still, one can and should ask whether the current default provisions provided by state-generated family law are good ones (to see, for example, if they are consistent with what most couples entering into marriages *would* have chosen ex ante had they thought to spell out their wishes).  

To the extent the current default-provisions fail have not been &#039;updated&#039; so as to track changing social norms and expectations, they should be criticized and reformed. I suspect, though, that because there exist a number of widely-divergent conceptions of the nature of marriage out there in society, it would be a mistake for the law to simply move from presupposing a &#039;patriarchal&#039; marriage to presupposing an &#039;equalitarian one.&#039;  Instead, I think the law ought to recognize several different &#039;marriage types&#039; (something that one may be seeing with the emergence of so-called covenant marriages): So that, forexample, when a couple goes down to the courthouse to get a marriage license, they would not have to get the one-stardard type (and then modify that by contract) but instead could choose among patriarchal, equalitarian, or even matriarchal forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few thoughts regarding the libertarian-ness (or lack thereof) of family law, and how the law might be improved to render it more liberarian:</p>
<p>The property division and alimony aspects of divorce degrees to a large extent follow from what one can think of as off-the-rack or default provisions that will govern any marriage that one enters into unless or until one &#8216;opts out&#8217; via an ante-nuptual or post-nuptual agreement.  </p>
<p>Given the perennial problem of &#8216;incompleteness of contracting,&#8217; all law &#8212; even polycentrically-generated law &#8212; *must* supply default terms of some sort or other.  Still, one can and should ask whether the current default provisions provided by state-generated family law are good ones (to see, for example, if they are consistent with what most couples entering into marriages *would* have chosen ex ante had they thought to spell out their wishes).  </p>
<p>To the extent the current default-provisions fail have not been &#8216;updated&#8217; so as to track changing social norms and expectations, they should be criticized and reformed. I suspect, though, that because there exist a number of widely-divergent conceptions of the nature of marriage out there in society, it would be a mistake for the law to simply move from presupposing a &#8216;patriarchal&#8217; marriage to presupposing an &#8216;equalitarian one.&#8217;  Instead, I think the law ought to recognize several different &#8216;marriage types&#8217; (something that one may be seeing with the emergence of so-called covenant marriages): So that, forexample, when a couple goes down to the courthouse to get a marriage license, they would not have to get the one-stardard type (and then modify that by contract) but instead could choose among patriarchal, equalitarian, or even matriarchal forms.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Mangum</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350112</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Mangum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350112</guid>
		<description>Or perhaps a comparison can be made of the attitudes of anti-prostitution feminists toward sex-workers with that of anti-warriors toward soldiers. Being for the troops but against the war makes sense if the troops are conscripts, but if they are volunteers one has to be against them as well, since they make the whole ugly spectacle possible and make our side look bad in the process. One may pity them, at best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or perhaps a comparison can be made of the attitudes of anti-prostitution feminists toward sex-workers with that of anti-warriors toward soldiers. Being for the troops but against the war makes sense if the troops are conscripts, but if they are volunteers one has to be against them as well, since they make the whole ugly spectacle possible and make our side look bad in the process. One may pity them, at best.</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350103</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350103</guid>
		<description>Well, many radical feminists -- even those who support anti-pornography and anti-prostitution laws (which, btw, is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; all radical feminists) -- are deeply suspicious of the state.  The problem is they&#039;re deeply suspicious of the market too.  When one thinks both state-based outcomes and market-based outcomes are likely to be horrific, one is left with a choice of poisons.

Anyway: just as libertarians complain that most feminists seem to be anti-libertarian, feminists complain that most libertarians seem to be anti-feminist.  And, well, they&#039;re both right -- and so each side tends to reinforce the otehr&#039;s prejudices.  So what&#039;s the solution?  My suggestion is to &lt;i&gt;become&lt;/i&gt; a libertarian who&#039;s not anti-feminist, and/or a feminist who&#039;s not anti-libertarian.  Every time someone does that, that&#039;s one more step toward critical mass.

Ditto for environmentalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, many radical feminists &#8212; even those who support anti-pornography and anti-prostitution laws (which, btw, is <i>not</i> all radical feminists) &#8212; are deeply suspicious of the state.  The problem is they&#8217;re deeply suspicious of the market too.  When one thinks both state-based outcomes and market-based outcomes are likely to be horrific, one is left with a choice of poisons.</p>
<p>Anyway: just as libertarians complain that most feminists seem to be anti-libertarian, feminists complain that most libertarians seem to be anti-feminist.  And, well, they&#8217;re both right &#8212; and so each side tends to reinforce the otehr&#8217;s prejudices.  So what&#8217;s the solution?  My suggestion is to <i>become</i> a libertarian who&#8217;s not anti-feminist, and/or a feminist who&#8217;s not anti-libertarian.  Every time someone does that, that&#8217;s one more step toward critical mass.</p>
<p>Ditto for environmentalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350102</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350102</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know how reliable a source this is, but in novels I&#039;ve read from the period, people in debtors&#039; prisons IIRC are always just sitting gloomily in their cells.

Even if they work, the kind of job you cna get behind bars will often be less lucrative thna the kind one can get on the outside.  Moreover, having been in prison may make it harder to get a good job on the outside.  Plus I&#039;m not a big fan of prison for nonviolent offenders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how reliable a source this is, but in novels I&#8217;ve read from the period, people in debtors&#8217; prisons IIRC are always just sitting gloomily in their cells.</p>
<p>Even if they work, the kind of job you cna get behind bars will often be less lucrative thna the kind one can get on the outside.  Moreover, having been in prison may make it harder to get a good job on the outside.  Plus I&#8217;m not a big fan of prison for nonviolent offenders.</p>
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		<title>By: Araglin</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350100</link>
		<dc:creator>Araglin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350100</guid>
		<description>Not at all to defend jailing debtors and &#039;deadbeat dads,&#039; but:

I think the point is that, the predictable consequence of being sent to jail if one doesn&#039;t pay one&#039;s debts (including child support) will tend to make debtors able but otherwise unwilling to repay their debts more willing to do so, so as to avoid imprisonment.  

Moreover, I think (but can&#039;t recall my source or any details) that historically debtors&#039; prisons often allowed --or even required-- that the prisoners work while behind bars, with some fraction of the proceeds of such work going towards the repayment of debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not at all to defend jailing debtors and &#8216;deadbeat dads,&#8217; but:</p>
<p>I think the point is that, the predictable consequence of being sent to jail if one doesn&#8217;t pay one&#8217;s debts (including child support) will tend to make debtors able but otherwise unwilling to repay their debts more willing to do so, so as to avoid imprisonment.  </p>
<p>Moreover, I think (but can&#8217;t recall my source or any details) that historically debtors&#8217; prisons often allowed &#8211;or even required&#8211; that the prisoners work while behind bars, with some fraction of the proceeds of such work going towards the repayment of debt.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Preston</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350099</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350099</guid>
		<description>In my own conversations with feminists, I have found that many of them have attitudes towards sex workers that very much resemble attitudes towards blacks that I have encountered in my conversations with racists, or attitudes towards homosexuals I&#039;ve encountered from members of the religious right.

The most contemporary feminist scholarship tends to argue less that socio-economic inequality is rooted in &quot;unequal pay for equal work&quot; as much as in &quot;occupation-segregation by gender&quot; meaning that women are more likely to be in occupations that are less rewarding economically. Problem is this is just as true in the Scandanavian countries where feminist ideology is prevalent and influential as it is in the industrialized countries with more traditional views on gender
like Japan.

The occasional Wendy McElroy  or Camille Paglia aside, I&#039;ve generally found that feminists are hard-core statists, as much as any faction of the Left, perhaps paralleled only by environmentalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my own conversations with feminists, I have found that many of them have attitudes towards sex workers that very much resemble attitudes towards blacks that I have encountered in my conversations with racists, or attitudes towards homosexuals I&#8217;ve encountered from members of the religious right.</p>
<p>The most contemporary feminist scholarship tends to argue less that socio-economic inequality is rooted in &#8220;unequal pay for equal work&#8221; as much as in &#8220;occupation-segregation by gender&#8221; meaning that women are more likely to be in occupations that are less rewarding economically. Problem is this is just as true in the Scandanavian countries where feminist ideology is prevalent and influential as it is in the industrialized countries with more traditional views on gender<br />
like Japan.</p>
<p>The occasional Wendy McElroy  or Camille Paglia aside, I&#8217;ve generally found that feminists are hard-core statists, as much as any faction of the Left, perhaps paralleled only by environmentalists.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Mangum</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2009/04/19/a-match-made-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-350092</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Mangum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 06:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaeblog.com/?p=2321#comment-350092</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d have to agree with Kieth that for the most part feminists have not been on the side of sex-workers. They simply cannot believe that any woman could willingly participate in prostitution, pornography, stripping, etc. without being brainwashed or manipulated by men. (That sometimes women are manipulated, to say nothing of forced, complicates the issue. People are manipulated and forced to do all types of things that would be perfectly respectable if they were voluntary.) 

Probably the most interesting and evenhanded essay on porn I have read by a feminist is Laura Kipnis&#039; &quot;(Male) Desire and (Female) Disgust: Reading Hustler&quot;, which gets into complicated issues of class, politics, and even aesthetics behind the culture of porn, and feminist reaction to it. I don&#039;t buy all of it, but I will say Kipnis writes uncommonly well for being a pseudo-Marxoid Critical Theory-type.

In my own conversations with feminists, I usually find that what seems to count for equality is better representation in institutions that as an anarchist I would just as soon abolish. Doesn&#039;t bode well for &quot;saving the marriage&quot;. (And yes, I know there are &quot;anarcha-feminists&quot; out there, I&#039;ve just never met one.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have to agree with Kieth that for the most part feminists have not been on the side of sex-workers. They simply cannot believe that any woman could willingly participate in prostitution, pornography, stripping, etc. without being brainwashed or manipulated by men. (That sometimes women are manipulated, to say nothing of forced, complicates the issue. People are manipulated and forced to do all types of things that would be perfectly respectable if they were voluntary.) </p>
<p>Probably the most interesting and evenhanded essay on porn I have read by a feminist is Laura Kipnis&#8217; &#8220;(Male) Desire and (Female) Disgust: Reading Hustler&#8221;, which gets into complicated issues of class, politics, and even aesthetics behind the culture of porn, and feminist reaction to it. I don&#8217;t buy all of it, but I will say Kipnis writes uncommonly well for being a pseudo-Marxoid Critical Theory-type.</p>
<p>In my own conversations with feminists, I usually find that what seems to count for equality is better representation in institutions that as an anarchist I would just as soon abolish. Doesn&#8217;t bode well for &#8220;saving the marriage&#8221;. (And yes, I know there are &#8220;anarcha-feminists&#8221; out there, I&#8217;ve just never met one.)</p>
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