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	<title>Comments on: Cato Institute Publishes Leftist Screed!, Pars Tertia</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-316680</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-316680</guid>
		<description>Geoffrey,

Couldn&#039;t a libertarian court view an investment in a corporation as something not necessarily akin to ownership (which I agree would necessitate liability on the part of the investor, at least WRT tort liability), but rather more like a conditional loan?

In other words, I would loan Corporation X $100 on the condition that they repay me a certain amount each quarter, based on their quarterly profits. You can call that &quot;dividends&quot; or &quot;interest&quot;, but one seems to imply agency while the other does not.

Thoughts anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey,</p>
<p>Couldn&#8217;t a libertarian court view an investment in a corporation as something not necessarily akin to ownership (which I agree would necessitate liability on the part of the investor, at least WRT tort liability), but rather more like a conditional loan?</p>
<p>In other words, I would loan Corporation X $100 on the condition that they repay me a certain amount each quarter, based on their quarterly profits. You can call that &#8220;dividends&#8221; or &#8220;interest&#8221;, but one seems to imply agency while the other does not.</p>
<p>Thoughts anyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Transom</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315941</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Transom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315941</guid>
		<description>Just to make sure this is clear: I did not say American &lt;i&gt;people&lt;/i&gt; are responsible for the actions of their government: those who choose not to participate and whose money is extorted from them, cannot be held responsible for the subsequent behaviour of the government. 

Those who VOTE, on the other hand, give their imprimatur to the system, and so are culpable for any damage that the system produces regardless of which side they vote for (because voting is a revelation of a preference for rule by whoever controls the largest gang). Between them they&#039;re responsible for every last red cent and every last drop of blood shed and every last piece of flesh torn off someone else&#039;s child.

That might be viewed as tangential to the issue limited liability - except that it&#039;s not.

Cheers



GT
&lt;a href=&quot;http://marketrant.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;GT&#039;s Market Rant&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to make sure this is clear: I did not say American <i>people</i> are responsible for the actions of their government: those who choose not to participate and whose money is extorted from them, cannot be held responsible for the subsequent behaviour of the government. </p>
<p>Those who VOTE, on the other hand, give their imprimatur to the system, and so are culpable for any damage that the system produces regardless of which side they vote for (because voting is a revelation of a preference for rule by whoever controls the largest gang). Between them they&#8217;re responsible for every last red cent and every last drop of blood shed and every last piece of flesh torn off someone else&#8217;s child.</p>
<p>That might be viewed as tangential to the issue limited liability &#8211; except that it&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>GT<br />
<a href="http://marketrant.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow"><b>GT&#8217;s Market Rant</b></a></p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Transom</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315932</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Transom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315932</guid>
		<description>Hi there Joshua Holmes,

That first sentence of mine was sloppy. That said, it was clarified by subsequent paragraphs.

As to whether a court or tribunal would grant an investor relief from having to make creditors whole simply because he was dumb enough to appoint a bad agent... sorry, I can&#039;t see it (unless the limited liability was known by the plaintiff in advance, in which case the plaintiff can go jump... the law of contract is paramount, in my view). Any anarchist court that was prepared to extend limited liability ex post facto, would be exculpating the agent for stupid decisions... we have enough of that now.

The agency co-ordination issue is a very very very bad justification for limited liability: it rewards the abrogation of responsibility. It&#039;s the sort of thinking that would pardon American voters for the actions of their government. I wouldn&#039;t: if you subscribe to a thing, you are on the hook for your share of the whole of any wrong it causes, not just the value of your shareholding.

Limited liability skews investment decisions, because investors are indemnified from the bulk of leverage-related losses.

Cheers



GT
&lt;a href=&quot;http://marketrant.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;GT&#039;s Market Rant&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there Joshua Holmes,</p>
<p>That first sentence of mine was sloppy. That said, it was clarified by subsequent paragraphs.</p>
<p>As to whether a court or tribunal would grant an investor relief from having to make creditors whole simply because he was dumb enough to appoint a bad agent&#8230; sorry, I can&#8217;t see it (unless the limited liability was known by the plaintiff in advance, in which case the plaintiff can go jump&#8230; the law of contract is paramount, in my view). Any anarchist court that was prepared to extend limited liability ex post facto, would be exculpating the agent for stupid decisions&#8230; we have enough of that now.</p>
<p>The agency co-ordination issue is a very very very bad justification for limited liability: it rewards the abrogation of responsibility. It&#8217;s the sort of thinking that would pardon American voters for the actions of their government. I wouldn&#8217;t: if you subscribe to a thing, you are on the hook for your share of the whole of any wrong it causes, not just the value of your shareholding.</p>
<p>Limited liability skews investment decisions, because investors are indemnified from the bulk of leverage-related losses.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>GT<br />
<a href="http://marketrant.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow"><b>GT&#8217;s Market Rant</b></a></p>
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		<title>By: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315851</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315851</guid>
		<description>Responses from me and from Charles are &lt;a href=&quot;http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/25/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-quarta&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;up&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Responses from me and from Charles are <a href="http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/25/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-quarta" rel="nofollow">up</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Holmes</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315788</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315788</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;They lost me when they made it clear that they didn’t understand that Limited Liability would not arise without State backing for it.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t see why it couldn&#039;t.  An anarchist court could easily recognize that an investor who forgoes control should not suffer unlimited liability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>They lost me when they made it clear that they didn’t understand that Limited Liability would not arise without State backing for it.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why it couldn&#8217;t.  An anarchist court could easily recognize that an investor who forgoes control should not suffer unlimited liability.</p>
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		<title>By: christhamrin</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315763</link>
		<dc:creator>christhamrin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315763</guid>
		<description>mike:  Block and Huebert seem to be confusing the process of explaining how Wal-Mart benefits from government with blaming them for dong so.

i have noticed the same.  of course this is a consistent thread w/many ancaps who mistakenly think that the organization of firms under a freed market would remain unchanged.  i have also noticed in these responses that walmart&#039;s defenders talk of the generic &quot;road&quot; and not highways and there is an important distinction between the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike:  Block and Huebert seem to be confusing the process of explaining how Wal-Mart benefits from government with blaming them for dong so.</p>
<p>i have noticed the same.  of course this is a consistent thread w/many ancaps who mistakenly think that the organization of firms under a freed market would remain unchanged.  i have also noticed in these responses that walmart&#8217;s defenders talk of the generic &#8220;road&#8221; and not highways and there is an important distinction between the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Rad Geek People&#8217;s Daily 2008-11-25 &#8211; In reply to a reply by J.H. Huebert and Walter Block</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315302</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Geek People&#8217;s Daily 2008-11-25 &#8211; In reply to a reply by J.H. Huebert and Walter Block</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315302</guid>
		<description>[...] In any case, though, Roderick has promised a reply, which I eagerly look forward to. My main reason for mentioning Huebert and Block&#8217;s essay here is that it contains a link to my old post Free the Unions (and all political prisoners)! (2004-05-01), and four paragraphs which purport to be a reply to my argument, and the claims Roderick makes on the basis of that argument. Here are those four paragraphs: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In any case, though, Roderick has promised a reply, which I eagerly look forward to. My main reason for mentioning Huebert and Block&#8217;s essay here is that it contains a link to my old post Free the Unions (and all political prisoners)! (2004-05-01), and four paragraphs which purport to be a reply to my argument, and the claims Roderick makes on the basis of that argument. Here are those four paragraphs: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Transom</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-315218</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Transom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-315218</guid>
		<description>They lost me when they made it clear that they didn&#039;t understand that Limited Liability would not arise without State backing for it. I have no problem with corporate personhood - but limited liability is ludicrous.

I find it hard to see how limited liability companies would come to dominate a genuinely free market as they dominate our current market structure. 

Sure, there would always be no end of people wanting to participate as &#039;equityholders&#039; if they knew that they had no downside apart  from their contributed capital, but leveraged exposure to gains (since the corporation can leverage up by accruing debt in its own name, and equityholders are not on the hook for the debt). 

However nobody in their right mind would extend credit to a Ltd in preference to a corporation without limited liability. I guess the counter to that is that firms are obviously willing to do so in the current environment.

Cheers
GT
&lt;a href=&quot;http://marketrant.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;GT&#039;s Market Rant&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They lost me when they made it clear that they didn&#8217;t understand that Limited Liability would not arise without State backing for it. I have no problem with corporate personhood &#8211; but limited liability is ludicrous.</p>
<p>I find it hard to see how limited liability companies would come to dominate a genuinely free market as they dominate our current market structure. </p>
<p>Sure, there would always be no end of people wanting to participate as &#8216;equityholders&#8217; if they knew that they had no downside apart  from their contributed capital, but leveraged exposure to gains (since the corporation can leverage up by accruing debt in its own name, and equityholders are not on the hook for the debt). </p>
<p>However nobody in their right mind would extend credit to a Ltd in preference to a corporation without limited liability. I guess the counter to that is that firms are obviously willing to do so in the current environment.</p>
<p>Cheers<br />
GT<br />
<a href="http://marketrant.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow"><b>GT&#8217;s Market Rant</b></a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Hutchinson</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-314993</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Hutchinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-314993</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t make it very far into Huebert and Block&#039;s piece. Between the bit on &quot;power is governmental and cannot in any way be transferred to a corporation, full stop&quot; and the bit where they seemed to be responding to an argument from some fascinating alternate universe where you said that Wal-Mart and McDonald&#039;s would simply disappear in a puff of smoke without government influence ... yeesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t make it very far into Huebert and Block&#8217;s piece. Between the bit on &#8220;power is governmental and cannot in any way be transferred to a corporation, full stop&#8221; and the bit where they seemed to be responding to an argument from some fascinating alternate universe where you said that Wal-Mart and McDonald&#8217;s would simply disappear in a puff of smoke without government influence &#8230; yeesh.</p>
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		<title>By: "Nick Manley" - The Curious "Deviant"</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/comment-page-1/#comment-314950</link>
		<dc:creator>"Nick Manley" - The Curious "Deviant"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/11/24/cato-institute-publishes-leftist-screed-pars-tertia/#comment-314950</guid>
		<description>That unionism qua unionism involves killing people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That unionism qua unionism involves killing people?</p>
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