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	<title>Comments on: Monster Thickburger Libertarianism</title>
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	<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/</link>
	<description>&#34;Austro&#34; as in Rothbard and Wittgenstein, &#34;Athenian&#34; as in Aristotle and smashing-the-plutocracy.</description>
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		<title>By: Black Bloke</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-189198</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Bloke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-189198</guid>
		<description>He (i.e. ka1igu1a) gave more detail about what he was talking about in his post here: http://freedomdemocrats.org/node/2974

Charles replied to the original post, and ka1igu1a has replied to Charles&#039; reply to his post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He (i.e. ka1igu1a) gave more detail about what he was talking about in his post here: <a href="http://freedomdemocrats.org/node/2974" rel="nofollow">http://freedomdemocrats.org/node/2974</a></p>
<p>Charles replied to the original post, and ka1igu1a has replied to Charles&#8217; reply to his post.</p>
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		<title>By: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-189179</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:22:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-189179</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m also baffled by kaligula&#039;s comments.  Charles&#039;s reasons for criticising the sex industry have nothing to do with puritanism or being against sexual pleasure; in any case, he has never called for government action against it (on the contrary, he has clearly and repeatedly called for an end to bans on prostitution and so forth); and anyway, he&#039;s never self-identified as an &quot;Austrian&quot; as far as I know, though he agrees with many aspects of Austrianism.  So, um, what are you talking about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m also baffled by kaligula&#8217;s comments.  Charles&#8217;s reasons for criticising the sex industry have nothing to do with puritanism or being against sexual pleasure; in any case, he has never called for government action against it (on the contrary, he has clearly and repeatedly called for an end to bans on prostitution and so forth); and anyway, he&#8217;s never self-identified as an &#8220;Austrian&#8221; as far as I know, though he agrees with many aspects of Austrianism.  So, um, what are you talking about?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Kaercher</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-188255</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Kaercher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-188255</guid>
		<description>I should rephrase that question:

Do you think that the sex workers ever experience their &quot;sexual contractions&quot; as pleasurable, or does that question simply not enter into your analysis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should rephrase that question:</p>
<p>Do you think that the sex workers ever experience their &#8220;sexual contractions&#8221; as pleasurable, or does that question simply not enter into your analysis?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Kaercher</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-188201</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Kaercher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-188201</guid>
		<description>ka1igu1a:

There may be some legitimate criticism to be made of Johnson&#039;s views on pornography, but I don&#039;t think one can just summarily dismiss them as &quot;social conservative garbage.&quot;

There may be a wide array of incentives that compel women to go into the sex trade that make a mockery of the idea that they do so voluntarily, such as a combination of economic and cultural pressures. I think you should perhaps investigate Johnson&#039;s views further before you issue such a sweeping judgment. 

There is no libertarian obligation, by the way, to defend, condone or simply ignore libertinism in any form, just so you know. (Judging by your use of a screen name that is some variant of the name Caligula, however, it remains to be seen if you can fully appreciate that.) To my knowledge, Johnson has never proposed government laws to regulate or ban pornography and sees his campaign against it as cultural and educational, not a legislative one.    

Further, as Brainpolice mentioned, there is no logical link between a libertarian objection to pornography and the Austrian school of economics. You&#039;re right that many Austrian school economists do tend to express socially conservative views when they do speak out on cultural issues. But there are some who don&#039;t; there is no relational link between any particular view of pornography and, say, the subjective theory of value, or between any position on abortion and the theory of marginal utility. (You may be interested to know that Johnson is actually somewhat critical of some dominant strands of Austrian thought, at any rate.)

Finally, can you really vouch for the claim that sex workers experience any real pleasure in each and every &quot;sexual contraction&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ka1igu1a:</p>
<p>There may be some legitimate criticism to be made of Johnson&#8217;s views on pornography, but I don&#8217;t think one can just summarily dismiss them as &#8220;social conservative garbage.&#8221;</p>
<p>There may be a wide array of incentives that compel women to go into the sex trade that make a mockery of the idea that they do so voluntarily, such as a combination of economic and cultural pressures. I think you should perhaps investigate Johnson&#8217;s views further before you issue such a sweeping judgment. </p>
<p>There is no libertarian obligation, by the way, to defend, condone or simply ignore libertinism in any form, just so you know. (Judging by your use of a screen name that is some variant of the name Caligula, however, it remains to be seen if you can fully appreciate that.) To my knowledge, Johnson has never proposed government laws to regulate or ban pornography and sees his campaign against it as cultural and educational, not a legislative one.    </p>
<p>Further, as Brainpolice mentioned, there is no logical link between a libertarian objection to pornography and the Austrian school of economics. You&#8217;re right that many Austrian school economists do tend to express socially conservative views when they do speak out on cultural issues. But there are some who don&#8217;t; there is no relational link between any particular view of pornography and, say, the subjective theory of value, or between any position on abortion and the theory of marginal utility. (You may be interested to know that Johnson is actually somewhat critical of some dominant strands of Austrian thought, at any rate.)</p>
<p>Finally, can you really vouch for the claim that sex workers experience any real pleasure in each and every &#8220;sexual contraction&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Brainpolice</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-187887</link>
		<dc:creator>Brainpolice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-187887</guid>
		<description>ka1igu1a: I&#039;m confused about why you&#039;re using the term &quot;Austrians&quot; in this context, which is to say, entirely out of context. Austrian economics really has absolutely nothing to do with this. Someone can be an adherant of austrian economics and have a whole slew of various political and cultural views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ka1igu1a: I&#8217;m confused about why you&#8217;re using the term &#8220;Austrians&#8221; in this context, which is to say, entirely out of context. Austrian economics really has absolutely nothing to do with this. Someone can be an adherant of austrian economics and have a whole slew of various political and cultural views.</p>
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		<title>By: ka1igu1a</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-187766</link>
		<dc:creator>ka1igu1a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-187766</guid>
		<description>Charles Johnson&#039;s &quot;thick libertarian&quot; mode that views the &quot;sex-industry&quot; as indefensible is social conservative garbage, notwithstanding whatever &quot;progressive&quot; dialectical methodology that is employed to arrive at that conclusion.

As a libertarian, I agree, the classical precepts of libertarianism are a bit thin, but I&#039;m also coming to the conclusion that you Austrians are fundamentally social conservative, anti-libertine to the core, whether from the right or the left. On the right we have the likes of Ron Paul giving us the libertarian case for the death penalty for abortion, or the libertarian case against IV fertilization, and on the left, we apparently now have the libertarian case against porn.

What is with this tendency of Austrian Praxis to view pleasurable sexual contraction as some exogenous variable to be explained away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles Johnson&#8217;s &#8220;thick libertarian&#8221; mode that views the &#8220;sex-industry&#8221; as indefensible is social conservative garbage, notwithstanding whatever &#8220;progressive&#8221; dialectical methodology that is employed to arrive at that conclusion.</p>
<p>As a libertarian, I agree, the classical precepts of libertarianism are a bit thin, but I&#8217;m also coming to the conclusion that you Austrians are fundamentally social conservative, anti-libertine to the core, whether from the right or the left. On the right we have the likes of Ron Paul giving us the libertarian case for the death penalty for abortion, or the libertarian case against IV fertilization, and on the left, we apparently now have the libertarian case against porn.</p>
<p>What is with this tendency of Austrian Praxis to view pleasurable sexual contraction as some exogenous variable to be explained away?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Allan Plauche</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-187120</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Allan Plauche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-187120</guid>
		<description>Yes. Some more concrete examples would be helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Some more concrete examples would be helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Black Bloke</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-184956</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Bloke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-184956</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re going to have to supply some concrete examples to illustrate this for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re going to have to supply some concrete examples to illustrate this for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Administrator</title>
		<link>http://aaeblog.com/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/comment-page-1/#comment-184656</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://praxeology.net/blog/2008/07/24/monster-thickburger-libertarianism/#comment-184656</guid>
		<description>Explanatory addendum:  Why isn&#146;t this just conjunction thickness?  After all, both conjunction thickness and specification thickness use independent values to choose among options where the non-aggression principle is silent.  

My answer:  in the case of conjunction thickness, the independent values aren&#146;t being used to determine &lt;i&gt;whether something should count as aggression or not&lt;/i&gt;; in specification thickness they are..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Explanatory addendum:  Why isn&#8217;t this just conjunction thickness?  After all, both conjunction thickness and specification thickness use independent values to choose among options where the non-aggression principle is silent.  </p>
<p>My answer:  in the case of conjunction thickness, the independent values aren&#8217;t being used to determine <i>whether something should count as aggression or not</i>; in specification thickness they are..</p>
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